Episode 8: Make an interesting About page on your website!!!
Speaker 1:0:00Welcome to make the logo bigger. We're a strategy for his company, right? So as everyone should be. I mean, you got to start with your objective and then the kind of work your way backwards from there, the podcast that takes you behind the scenes of a marketing agency, conscience getting so much more expensive. We just gotta figure out more economical ways to provide that service to clients from two guys that get paid to do this stuff on a daily basis. People love behind the scenes type stuff. They want to see how you work. You know, they want to know more about your process, so be open and honest. Here's your host. You know rice. Usually the best ideas don't actually sit within where you are. They're usually come from somewhere else, and Mike, Carol, you need to design first and then create content to the design. And now the obligatory legal disclosure. Bill Rice and Mike Carol worked for Kalydeco, a marketing and design agency. All opinions expressed by bill and Mike Art, definitely the opinions of Kalydeco opinions expressed by guests of this podcast. Well, they could be right or wrong. Who knows, this podcast is for informational purposes and has a reasonable probability of making your marketing better. And now this week's episode.
Speaker 1:1:08All right, here we are at. Make the logo bigger. We're in episode eight and today we're going to talk about about pages. We obviously do a lot of website works here at Kalydeco and the about page is
Speaker 2:1:20under estimated as far as its value. So I got Mike here with me. How are you doing? Like I'm good. Vr, how are you doing? Excellent. Doing excellent. So, um, like I mentioned, we're obviously doing a lot of websites and we're knee deep in several different projects right now. And um, before we kinda get into talking about the, about page, another thing that's sort of started to percolate, are we running into more and more clients like this is people that, believe it or not, this day and age, um, haven't really actually been been doing a lot of online or digital marketing. And so they really don't know where to start. I mean, they're just kind of going from scratch. So we're talking about doing that in the next episode. You want to add any color there, but kind of what we're thinking about talking there.
Speaker 3:2:06Yeah, I mean it's a, it's such a fundamental topic that like, I think it often goes overlooked. It's the assumption is that, you know, when you're a company or you're a marketing director, that you know exactly where you need to start with their digital marketing. But now that there's so many different sort of tactics and approaches, I mean, you know, the channels aren't a numerous, numerous, you know what I mean, like infinite, so to speak, but they are, there are many of them. So trying to figure out like the essential question of where to get started is something that we've been getting asked more and more. And actually I had a conversation with a colleague yesterday that, you know, bill a Trisha winter who we've worked with a copywriter and an ample affinity and a couple other clients that she's kind of out there doing her own thing.
Speaker 3:2:46Um, and she told me that ample affinity, which is a, for those who don't know, amplify it is a referral automation software out of the Ann Arbor. Um, and I started up here, uh, but, but anyway, she was telling me that she actually transitioned whole marketing footprint, digital marketing footprint away from PPC and sort of inbound and just focused on abm or account based marketing, uh, for an entire year and she was kind telling me about that success and it spurred the conversation which is like where do you start and the logical place to start is obviously search engine optimization, paid traffic, PPC, maybe some social and kind of, you know, attract traffic with intent, um, but now with all the targeting capabilities of different types of data platforms and data partners and companies, you can kind of not, you know, skip, go or not collect $200, whatever and just get right to the people you actually want to talk to. So I think it all starts with the target and this is a really long conversation. So I'm, I'm excited for this episode. I think it's gonna be really good. Hopefully we can keep it to 45 minutes. I doubt that, but we'll try our best
Speaker 2:3:44funding and also kind of mixes together. Um, and we, we've always thought like this, but a lot of marketing agencies don't, but really where is that intersection and that, that appropriate mix of sales and marketing versus marketing pushing the rock up the hill. So
Speaker 3:4:00same team people. It's the same team.
Speaker 2:4:05Yeah, totally. Totally goes together. All right. So let's, um, let's jump right into our topic. This is kind of one of my favorite things about. I'm thinking about the website, but probably almost no client wants us to focus any attention on it. It's usually heavily neglected and this week is, I was kind of going around the web looking for some inspiration on some, some knew about pages. I'm just shocked. How many about pages are one, either nonexistent or two. I'm totally erodes any sort of trust or credibility, I might have a in the company itself because there's just nothing there. So those pages.
Speaker 3:4:43Yeah, I mean I think that the biggest mistake that people make is they think that people are more interested in your product and they are your team. And I think in the, in the digital age, so to speak, people are fundamentally interested in who you are, not necessarily what you do. And we can kind of get to that when we go through our bullet points on this discussion. But, but I totally agree bar. I mean I think it's a neglected part of even services companies were like the team is the thing you're selling, you know, they're missing the mark on it. Just thinking, oh I'll just put some funky bio's up there and we're guilty of this as well by the way. One hundred percent guilty of it and it's why we've gone down this path and putting your, your bile is up there with like cute agency titles. If you're an agency or like you know, key titles like head of growth or that kind of stuff, you know, is not enough. And then talking about how you like craft beer or you know, whatever else, you really got to tell your story of why in there, you know, it's, it's got to matter because the people that you hire matter and those are the people that are executing the ease of the product they're building or the um, or the service you're providing.
Speaker 2:5:45Just kind of faking it when you're doing that right here. So you're again, trying to keep that wall up or for whatever reason you're afraid to be transparent or, or just, um, authentic. You have mentioned several times. I think the other thing I'm kind of in that same realm is a totally lost my train of thought there. So it's
Speaker 3:6:09Karen, you're going to cut that. We'll keep it. This is how it works, right?
Speaker 2:6:15Totally. Anyway, so let's. So let's jump ahead. So tell you, you've got here in your notes, you know, talk about telling people like what you're doing, that transparency, that authenticity, kind of. Let's talk about that a little bit. Like what, what would you expect to do there? What should we be doing there?
Speaker 3:6:30Yeah. So the first thing I think you have to do is be honest with yourself, right? So like, there's this whole idea about, you know, when you say transparency and authenticity, it means actually be yourselves. There's a, there's a don't be what people, what you expect people to expect you to be. That's a lot of expectations, right? So if you just focus on, on why you're doing that, you know, why you're doing what you're doing and tell that story. People are going to pick up on that passion. What I would recommend that everybody watch before they do their about page by the way, is Simon Simon Sinek golden circle. It's like one of the most popular Ted talks of all time. Um, and it really talks about what he discusses is a story of why I won't go too deep into it except to say, you know, when you think about what you're doing, most people communicate their company in the following way, right?
Speaker 3:7:15They talk about, you know, what they do, how they do it, and then why they do it. And what Sinek talks about is what you really want to do is talk about why you do you do, would you do first, because what people identify with is that sort of emotional connection you're creating with them. They want to believe in something. And so if you express what you believe as opposed to just what you do or how you do it, then you're going to find you're inspiring that sort of evangelism in your audience. And I think it's also important to note as we go look through all of our clients, be they service clients or um, or, or product clients. You know what I mean? Like they're selling a widget of any kind, whether it's software or even t shirts or something. The about page of above your company gets more traffic than you think. So like I would highly advise you to go to your google analytics right now and like check out your about page and see how people are engaging in a I, I guarantee you you're getting more traffic to that page. And you think. And if it's not a good page, by the way, they're bouncing out and you're actually killing a customer relationship right then and there. Totally. I mean,
Speaker 2:8:17I know it's always at least the second or third page then I'll go to, if I'm seriously thinking about doing business with somebody and I'm in and most websites that we manage and work with, it's easily a number, you know, two or, or at least in the top five or so pages as far as volume of traffic. And um, I do remember what I was Kinda thinking is when we're talking about people in particular, I mean you talk about those people explaining their why are those people being themselves and kind of like an authentic way. I mean, if I think about like all the people that I've done business with, and I think this is generally a rule, I mean you tend partner with people and you tend to use products and not just services but products where you have some sort of affinity for the people, right?
Speaker 2:9:06I mean, you're actually choosing the people and sometimes you'll even endure somewhat of a substandard product if you feel like the account manager or you like, and we talked about this all the time, especially in the agency business. I mean our account execs, um, you know, people work with us because they like a particular account exec and that's a critical part of that. But the products too. I know I'm just giving us as a, as a, uh, an example, um, you know, base camp, although we like it, it's probably not, I'm probably the, you know, top market shares wise, it was probably not the top project management but we'd probably continue to use it just because we kind of like the people in the ethos of the company that's behind it. And so I know at least for me, they generate a lot of value just by watching the things that they're doing and how they work and that sort of thing. And, and sometimes that, um, you know, I have a stronger affinity for using that product versus some of the other things that we've talked about switching to. So.
Speaker 3:10:07Oh yeah. I mean, when you really think about it, I mean, one of the reasons why we use base camp, um, even when we're pitching clients or whatever else they ask all the time what software we're using and you know, in full transparency, we were like, what, what it says about our culture that we find affinity with their culture. You know, it's, it's almost the old adage that people on facebook, like why does anybody share anything on facebook? Well, they share it to look smart, be funny or be cool to have that type of thing. So, you know, like you said, we like base camp. I mean it's a fine piece of software but it does fall short and some of our needs, but you know, but we really love the culture of Basecamp, formerly 37 signals and, and I liked what that says about, you know, how we focus our business.
Speaker 3:10:48You know, that's an interesting way to kind of, to kind of look at it. The other thing I think is really important on your about page and what we're struggling with is it allowed to kind of dovetail this into like the two points I want to make about it, but is so first of all you've got to show, not tell. And so if you're thinking about an interesting way to display your company's story on an about page, think about how you can demonstrate the why of why you're doing what you're doing and even the, what of what you're doing without just simply writing it. I mean, is there an interactive experience that you can create that communicates that essence of your company? Um, it's a storytelling technique. You know, his oldest Shakespeare, right? Like if you go in any creative writing class, they tell you, you know, don't tell your audience, show them.
Speaker 3:11:32It's about describing the scene. And so on and so forth. You don't tell people how they feel. They show you how they feel by their behaviors and actions. And I think if you think about your, about page, like a story because that's exactly what it is. And you show people what your company is all about, then you'll find some really cool ways, uh, to sort of display your team to display your products. I mean, it's a, it's a more important page like we've reiterated here than you think and you, it's an opportunity to route people on your website too. So the more important content funnels that are going to drive them to conversion. Actually I've been wanting to get down to like the nitty gritty of it. You want them to take an action on that page. So often it's a dead end page and there's nothing to do there.
Speaker 3:12:09Think about what you want them to do next, you know, and then inspire them to take that action by telling your story. And I know that sounds super complicated. So, uh, you know, by next recommendation is go find some outside help for this, you know, you gotta it's hard to self assess. It's even hard for us to self assess. So we've gone to where I've started to ask a couple of our partners and I didn't even tell you this bar, but you know, skidmore and some other, the agencies that do branding work exclusively and start running ideas by them and ask them what they think about us and so on and so forth. And so getting a more of a, a third party perspective on what it's like to work with us to help us better understand ourselves and I think that's really cool.
Speaker 2:12:48Yeah, totally. So let's get into that. Kind of like what's on the page. So that's kind of something that you rarely see. I mean, you, you have testimonials and that sort of thing, but um, a lot of times the testimonials, like a lot of other things I'm on about pages are kind of, you know, a manufactured if you will, or we've grabbed something and put it on there but they don't really feel authentic. So how would you go about explaining that? I'm documenting, if you will, how to work with us or how people do work with us. Like what, what are you kind thinking there?
Speaker 3:13:23Well, I think you have to interject inside. So one of the ideas we're having, and this is literally us brainstorming out loud, right? Because like we don't have a clear plan for what that page is going to be like yet. Um, but one of the things that we've been considering is, you know, so each individual on the team, we're 100 percent remote so there's a couple of cool things that we can do with like who our people are and, and, and where they are and what they're doing and what they're interested in. So for one, we want to leverage a different type of, about page experience where it's almost focused on a map and so you can see where all of our people are. They live in different places because they have different personalities and then, you know, once you click onto that place in the map and it kind of takes you through an experience about that, you know, that worker, so to speak, or that team member.
Speaker 3:14:04The second part about that that I think would be really interesting that I've been thinking about this week, um, is that associating the work that we do with each individual team member. They all have different expertise. They worked on different projects and now you're pulling in case studies, blog articles, other types of supporting content authored by those team members into that about page experience and driving someone again showing and not telling, so the these are the things that this person is working on. These are the ideas they have that thought leadership that they're presenting and then driving people into other content on the website to have a totally different experience as opposed to like the very static approach to just doing like clicking on somebody's name and their picture turns from black, the color, black and white to color and then all you read is their bio and there's no action.
Speaker 2:14:49We've talked about that before. Especially like I said in our business so often I think people at least stick into us and become more loyal because of the people that they work with. But it would be interesting to see if people would actually kind of come into the website and because we're doing a so much more of a richer experience for the individuals, they might actually come in and say, well, Hey, you know, I wanna um, I wanna, you know, talk about working with you guys, but I want to work with Mike instead of jacqueline or I want to work with Jacqueline instead of Mike or, or I've picked, you know, Jacqueline to work with or, you know, I'm curious as to, you know, can we bring Dave quilty on the call, you know, that kind of stuff. And if we would get a little bit more of a sort of early preferences as to people that they're interested in a kind of much like a job interview or looking at somebody's resume and actually take a look at their portfolio, what they do and what they delivered to other clients and potentially have that be part of, of the, the, the, the presales process, if you will.
Speaker 3:15:54Yeah. I also wonder, you know, as we're talking about this like this, you know, I wonder, it'd be great to test, you know, the idea is that you're going down this sort of like content experience about an individual or you're, you know, you're getting a sense of like who they are and what they do by what they write about by the work that they produce and so on and so forth. And you did want to work with them that you actually make each of those individual entry points for a sales conversation. All the people at Gladica are absolutely qualified to talk about the services that they provide. And we don't have a traditional sales department like there's no one out there setting appointments for us or whatever else. And so if you were to talk to any of us while we're on the same strategic page and there's sort of a, a guy, we have guiding principles that Kalydeco for how we approach digital marketing and in particular website design and development. Um, but if you were to talk to us individually, of course, see the responses you get will be kind of different. That's what we like about our people. Um, and I, that's what you should like about your people on your team too. It's a great way to celebrate diversity and, and have a, a user, so to speak, or a potential customer start exactly the type of conversation they want to have. Um, I don't know if people will use it or not, but uh, you know, it's not worth the time.
Speaker 2:16:58And this is, I think why about pages kind of usually fall down. It's because there's a lot of work in order to do that, you kind of have to assemble that material and you have to kind of build those dynamic experiences. So I think it's work that people, um, one or are not willing to do. And probably second, and maybe this is actually first, is they just don't know how to kind of go about assembling that story in a good way for the, about page because it's like I said, most of them are, are just, you know, in a page where they just ramble on about like, oh, this is Kalydeco and we've been around a couple of years and Yada Yada Yada. Um, so, so kind of wrap this topic up. I'm gonna have you fill in any holes that I leave out. So on this page, I'm generally, we're recommending that you have a component that is the why, why, why somebody would work with you.
Speaker 2:17:49Um, and of course more importantly, why you do the work that you do, the people that should be a reflection of who's in the company, um, and how and why those people are important. I like the kind of storytelling on each person versus just the bio. Um, and then the other one is probably something along the lines of the heritage of our company. Whether it's a, you know, you've got a short, you know, your company is relatively new or like ours, it's, you know, well over a decade now I'm kind of giving some sort of indication of what that experience brings to, to the client. Anything else that you think kinda. And then of course I kinda forgot this, but this is an and most often it is for guidance. There should be a sales pitch on there somewhere, right? Some sort of call to action, but
Speaker 3:18:36yeah, that was the only thing I was going to add is that 100 percent, you should someone who's coming to your about page, you've got them hooked to the point where they want to know who your people are. Give them an action to take. You know, it could be just simple cta, it could be something as complicated as we described, but don't let the page be a dead end. I think that's almost almost.
Speaker 2:18:52Okay. Let's take a pause at the end of this segment and then, uh, then we'll talk a little bit about our challenges from the week.
Speaker 1:18:58All right, great. You're listening to Kaleidos. Make the logo bigger podcast. You can find us on the web at [inaudible] dot com. K A L I o.com. Now, back to the show.
Speaker 2:19:18All right, we're back. So the biggest challenges of the weaker or rabbit hole that you went down, uh, Mike were kind of just blend this in a story we're just telling about about pages and we're going to use us as an example. So what do we've been doing here with Kalydeco that's kind of taken your attention this week?
Speaker 3:19:37Yeah. So I am deep in the rabbit hole of redesigning our website. Um, and, and when, you know, I think one of the good things we've done here in Vr, you can agree or disagree with this and it might be a good piece of advice when you do it by committee, it's really difficult. It's not saying that everybody in your in your company can have input into the website, but like the more in, particularly for an agency, by the way, as for the folks who work in agencies or you know, listening to this, whether you're a smaller, large, everybody's going to have an opinion no matter what. It doesn't mean everybody's opinions valid, even inside of an agency and we all work on and build websites, but more to the point when you open up the doors to be as creative as you possibly want, which of course we want to be like, you know, our, we talked in the previous segment about showing not telling.
Speaker 3:20:23So our website redesign when we talk about our pivot and we've talked to them about, um, the, you know, on the podcast before is as much a living case study. If, if nothing else, like it's an opportunity for us to say, Hey, look at this very neat thing that we built for ourselves with, with no constraints. Um, and so when that happens, of course you really run the risk of going down like the creative rabbit hole. And trying to build too much at once. So the challenge that I've been dealing with this week is how to, and we, there's a whole episode that we did on website minimalism by the way, but how to really distill, uh, you know, our website, redesigned to its most basic components and then allow us to build it over time. So, so when I finally decided today, by the way, which I'm sure you'll be happy to hear me are, uh, that I just finished the home page and a creative brief and we're going to run our design contest for, for new opportunities to display our brand.
Speaker 3:21:18We're very curious to just kind of open this up to the 99 designs community and kind of see what they come up with. We have internal designers, but this is where we're talking about go find outside help. So I'm excited to kind of do that, um, and just focus on getting that home page done. And then we're going to work on some of these content modules and just build this, you know, methodically and slowly. So by the end of the week slash early next week, I plan to have a more considered roadmap for the ongoing development of the website. So I think that's another thing that we can relate to our listeners, which is like, your website is not a static like deliverable, uh, you know, it's never going to be, um, what was the way I always describe you got to treat your website like an employee. I'm in the middle of the blog post that I was writing about that, right?
Speaker 3:21:59So it's a lot of people cheat their website like a depreciating asset. You build it once and that's supposed to give you value and that value kind of depreciates over time. No, it's, uh, it's an employee that needs to learn, needs to be trained, it needs to change, needs to be loved, it needs to evolve. Uh, you know, your website is never done, so start small and then you know, and then expand out. And then by the way, once you expand out to far, much like the universe, you're going to have to snap it all the way back to being a minimal focus platform. Again, and that's going to be repetitive process and kind of really were,
Speaker 2:22:30this is something that we're kind of learning and perfecting over time and, and I think it's just the way website development and to sign is evolving over time. And so I think we talked about this several episodes again or go, but um, whereas website design used to be sort of a creative exercise and it was, it was a lot like, you know, developing collateral where it was static and it was a moment in time or a snapshot in time. Now the complexity on the web and the expectations of a from users as to what they should be able to do on the web is really ratcheting up. And so now when we go into website design and development projects, we're thinking a lot more like. And we're creating more disciplined processes around this. We're thinking a lot more like a software engineers and software development chops because we're expecting that we're going to be iterating on this website.
Speaker 2:23:30So there's going to be things that we're going to bring a at launch and then there's going to be things that we're going to bring, uh, over time and iteration and features and sprints and that sort of thing. And I think you really start to handicap yourself if you're not starting to use website as a tool and as an application and less and less like a marketing brochure. So I think that's another kind of critical way to, to one, keep your projects, you know, in a limited and reasonable scope and budget, but at the same time being able to over time build into that kind of full, full featured piece of software. So
Speaker 3:24:09yeah. Well I think it also allows you to be more creative. So the second I made that decision to like, okay, like let's create a roadmap. I've felt freer to actually be more creative, to put things on the roadmap and keep them in the parking lot as they say, you know, the things that weren't essential or things that we wanted to test. And then you can connect these ideas that you have on content experiences or interactive experiences or whatever the thing is you think is going to help move somebody to take an action on your website to convert, which is the entire purpose of it. Then you can prioritize them based on your marketing priorities and your business objectives and you can reorder the roadmap and you know, it becomes a much more actually fun and exercise because then you know, you're not done. You don't feel like you're leaving something on the table.
Speaker 3:24:52So often when we work with clients and building their websites, you know, they tried to hold, throw the kitchen sink at it, we give them the estimate unlike what it would cost to do that. And it's like, you know, it could be $100,000 project or something. And then they start backing all this stuff off and they think that, oh now we're losing this and we're losing that. And it feels like they're, you know, they're falling behind or like they're not getting everything they want. If you translate that instead to an ongoing exercise or an ongoing engagement where like every month or every quarter or you're doing something new on the website, whatever your budget allows, it will free you up to not worry about what you're losing and focus on what you need at any particular time. I think it's okay. So let's
Speaker 2:25:30switch over to um, hottest trends in marketing and today brought us some buzzword Bingo here. I'm a,
Speaker 3:25:37a, B in. What the heck is that? Account based marketing. So it is the new hotness, um, a lot of the people listening to this podcast, if you're paying attention to marketing at all, which I imagine you are, you've probably heard of it before, but it's really starting to kind of take hold in the BTB universe. So we'll talk about this kind of more on the next episode a little bit, but essentially abm is the, you know, a do not pass. Go, do not collect $200. Let's skip the inbound marketing by trying to grab strangers with intent and simply go directly after the companies and decision makers that you absolutely know that you want to work with. Um, and now with Ip targeting when it comes to display ads with custom audiences and facebook and linkedin via email matches, whether it's direct mail and personalized urls or there's just a million different ways now that you can kind of Hash dice, you know, and, and segment these, these lists, this data that you can, you can get out there to talk directly to the people that you want to talk to you and do it in a considered way.
Speaker 3:26:39But it's always kind of part of an outbound sales process. So I think one of the reasons why it hasn't taken hold is because not every company has a very considered approach to like outbound sales, whether it's cold calling or, or or whatever else. And so for those companies that are adopting it, they're really getting some significant results. And, and by the way, it's much more economically viable if you have a limited, a limited digital marketing manager
Speaker 2:27:03trended aspect of going outbound and the notion of cold calling. So I'm, I'm curious, so you're working with some clients that are, that are doing this or had some success with this kind of. How does the marketing department dovetail into that? Are they actually bringing the data to the table? Is the sales team bringing the data? How do they actually know that a particular company is the right fit or that they actually, I mean, what, what kind of creates the filter that says these companies we want to work with these. We don't have. Is the marketing department a part of building that profile or how does, how does that presales process work or what's that look like?
Speaker 3:27:46So I think it depends on how you're collecting data about your current client. So we had one client, by the way this week, who I had to give her a round of applause. She runs a, an hr consultancy here in Michigan. Um, when they, when the company is Quad West. So if you have hr problems by the way, go to [inaudible] dot com. I don't mind plugging our clients. We work with good folks. Um, but she came to me with a five year analysis of like who are past clients were sorted by revenue sorted by company size. Like I was really impressed with the level of detail and data that she took the time to put together. And what came out of it was like, Hey, and she didn't recognize this, that the nonprofit sector was kind of like a huge section of her business and she didn't even realize it.
Speaker 3:28:25So now we've got a nice starting point. Okay. What kinds of nonprofits? So you want to make that decision yourself. So they become business objective decisions. I think the marketing department plays a role here because if you want a good abm strategy to work, it's, it requires two phases. A requires this softening phase, which is like an outbound marketing strategy that would include, you know, advertising, display advertising, social advertising, maybe prospect emails. She could be even, you know, automated sms text or or whatever else to soften up these prospects to then ready to sales team and score those leads by their engagement and then engage the ones that are already interested and you will find your sales team being very excited about that because they'll get more appointments. They'll get more reception on the other end from these particular lists and so you have to have these two teams working together.
Speaker 3:29:13But I think the marketing department plays the most important role honestly because they're the ones that are going to do the messaging, the collateral and the actual execution of a campaign to soften up a list so that when you actually do that cold outreach, a, the person on the other end, the line has heard of the company a and b. they're a little bit primed and prepped for the conversation itself. And and hopefully if you're using a crm or some type of database where you can do some lead scoring. You already know that they're slightly interested in the products. You're looking at it and you may even know what products or services that are interested in the most based on their digital behavior. So it's a complicated digital marketing strategy that requires as much of a technology exercise as that does kind of like a creative exercise, but if you do it right, it can be really powerful. It just takes time to build and you have to be patient with it.
Speaker 2:30:01Yeah. This is kind of, I've always liked the, you know, as we bring the sales and the marketing closer together, we've been talk about that a lot. I've always been a big proponent of sales and I think that that's critically important for that sales department to, to be interacting with marketing and informing some of the marketing decisions that we're making. Totally. And so this, this whole concept I think makes, makes both departments a lot stronger. Um, okay. So, uh, top recommendations for this week and we'll, we'll close out with this. So you've got, you've got one here,
Speaker 3:30:38we will see you inspired this for me. Vr. So you wouldn't have been kind of working out our website design and development process and we're trying to, you know, expand our capabilities, but our creative reached by leveraging more freelancers and getting more talented people into our sort of stable of designers and developers that we work with on a regular basis. And so we have a pretty good process for building a website, but you came to me earlier this week and we're like, you know what, I'm going to blow it up a little bit because we could do it better. Um, and I kind of panicked in my mind a little bit. I was like, uh, I mean it was working, Bill, you know, let's let, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. But then I thought about it a little more and it makes a ton of sense.
Speaker 3:31:19So like my recommendation for the weakest take one process in your business that you think is actually really good and turn it upside down because we're doing something really well, then you could really do it better. And so the point that you made to me, which I thought was really interesting, is that our website design and development process starting with strategy first and so on and so forth is you know, is an above grade experience when you count us against most website design and development agencies. And the reason for that is because of how we think about website design development. It's a little different, but you, your point you were making is yeah, but it's not the best. Like it could really be incredible if we did x, Y, and Z and so I'm excited as you kind of go down that path and, and investigate it yourself to see what you come up with. I mean it's a, it's a, it's a fun exercise and it doesn't need to mean like disrupt your whole company, but you could really kind of mind for that gold and we might find something absolutely incredible out of that process too.
Speaker 2:32:17And like you've mentioned before that we have a kind of a 100 percent remote team. I think it's always important to that when maybe you don't have that team in one place where can feel that it kind of the emotion and the highs, uh, and, and that's sort of the dynamic nature of kind of everybody being in the same spot, I think, which encourages people as they're working with each other, just like a team, a sports team, as you kind of work out together and play games together, you actually start to challenge each other to get better because you are open, you missed the past or you know, you didn't spot, you know, this guy, I'm an open route or, or whatever. Um, and, and so we pushed back on each other. And so I think one of the reasons that I kind of want to do more of this is because we need to challenge the team.
Speaker 2:33:06We need to challenge the individual components. Otherwise you will just kind of get stagnant and you're just become average and it just sorta deliver things. Um, and anytime that you're delivering kind of marginal and clients push back on you, uh, you take that as an offense were, you know, versus a challenge or well maybe I didn't deliver the best product on the market and that kind of stuff. So I think you gotta you gotta constantly be people just from a motivation standpoint, people like to be challenged, people like to feel like they're the best in the industry and, and more than anything people like to be on the best team. So that's what really what we're trying to create here. It's like we want to be the best team and then that means pushing everybody on the, on the team to be, you know, reliable component of that. So
Speaker 3:33:54you touched on something that's really interesting to you by the way, which sometimes, particularly on the agency side and it's hard to do. You get a lot of push back. I'll be frank. Uh, when you're working on the agency side of things, for whatever reason, the, the, sometimes the relationships kind of automatically acrimonious because people on the other team don't think they need you or they don't like the fact that you're arrogant, you know, or, or whatever, the, whatever the dynamic is there that kind of creates that animosity. But every single criticism is an opportunity. It's not a, which is a philosophy about work and life even. I mean, if you're defensive automatically and I, you know, then you're never going to learn are, you're never going to grow. And if you look at criticism instead as an opportunity, at the very minimum to first self-assess, then you're going to be better at what you do.
Speaker 3:34:41You're going to broad better deliverables for your clients, better product. Um, and I think it just goes, goes to the good entirely. Not all, every criticism is invalid by the way. But if, again, if you approach that criticism like first off is like, okay, well let me look inside and look at our process or what we delivered and see where that went wrong. And you do it honestly. Then you're going to find that you're going to be improving constantly and it's that sort of ever on optimization loop that everybody always talks about, but the only thing that spurs that is outside criticism, it's very hard to do that internally. So I'm kind of glad that you decided to, you know, to do that, to come and be critical of our process and, you know, which has been going well and be like, no, no, no, we could do this better. And my first reaction in that instance was like, to be defensive about it. Like I don't know that we've worked really hard on that process bill. Uh, but that was wrong. And so when I thought about it a second time, I was like, no, he's absolutely right. We could do it. You could always do it better. There's always a better way to skin the cat. And I think that's tricky too, like especially
Speaker 2:35:38with outside push back and even inside pushback. It's, it's just um, because it's not always, it's not always correct. It's not always fair. The person doesn't always necessarily understand it. Um, and there are some times when we've had this with clients were, you know, some clients are just downright abusive and then that's detrimental to the team as well. And then we fired clients and we'll do that. I'm in it for sure. Um, when people are just not, not doing anything constructive, right? They're not being, um, you know, in any sort of way, respectful or just reasonable, but at the same time, um, again, you should even, even for some criticism that you don't think it's fair to step back and say like, why are they, why are they feeling that way or why are they taking that perspective? There's something that we've done that's put, um, having them look at us through that Lens.
Speaker 2:36:34So even on the invalid, I'm sort of criticism sometimes or when they're just flat out wrong, it's also healthy to kind of step back and say, well, why did they have that perspective? Is there something that we're doing? Is there something that we haven't? Um, and this happens a lot and we're really guilty of this early on, is we would just just bulldozer our clients. Like we just roll over them because we knew what to do, we knew what they needed and we would just go do it and we would leave them, you know, flattened in the road instead of stepping back, slowing down to their pace, uh, educating them, bringing them up to speed and making them understand why we wanted to do certain things or wherever we were doing certain things and kind of walking with them instead of just rolling them over because of our experience or our expertise. So, so that's, that's another, you know. And so a lot of times we'd get a lot of bad feedback. It wasn't did anything wrong or bad and we will probably right, but we certainly didn't slow down. I'm in such a way to make them feel good about the process or feel confident
Speaker 3:37:37being right doesn't always make you right. In this instance for particularly in any relationship, whether it's an agency, company relationship or even you're trying to get buy in on your own team, right? So if you're running a marketing department and you need the sales guys to get on board with this new thing, you know, running over them is never going to inspire the trust and confidence to, to bring them into the process, which is what you need. So I totally agree with that. I mean it, you know, be self or self reflexive first at all, at all points, and then, you know, like I said, I think you'll actually find yourself being a, a better person, more tolerant person, you know, a more helpful individual, which
Speaker 2:38:11totally, totally. Alright. So that's our recommendation. Obviously, look critically at your business. Think about things that you can kind of refine and get better. And there's always, there's always another level above that. Um, there's, there's always, you know, the Olympic athletes will tell you this, every records to be broken. So you need to kind of always be thinking in that same sort of mindset. So anything else before we wrap up today? No, no, that's it. I think we've, we've filled every one's head with enough, uh, enough of our nonsense. Excellent. All right, well that's going to wrap episode eight and we'll be back here next week with episode nine. I'm like us, give us comments, feedback on all the places where you download your.
Speaker 1:38:52We'll see ya.