Episode 2: Why Choose a Minimalist Web Design
Speaker 1:0:00Welcome to make the logo bigger. We're a strategy first company, right? So as everyone should be, I mean you got to start with your objective and then the kind of work your way backwards from there, the podcast that takes you behind the scenes of a marketing agency, conscience getting so much more expensive. You just got to figure out more economical ways to provide that service to clients from two guys that get paid to do this stuff on a daily basis. People love behind the scenes type stuff. They want to see how you work. You know, they want to know more about your process, so be open and honest. Here's your host though, Rice. Usually the best ideas don't actually sit within where you are. They're usually come from somewhere else, and Mike, Carol, you need to design first and then create content to the design, and now the obligatory legal disclosure. Bill Rice and Mike Carol, work for Kalydeco, a marketing and design agency. All opinions expressed by bill and Mike are definitely the opinions of Kalydeco opinions expressed by guests of this podcast. Well, they could be right or wrong. Who knows, this podcast is for informational purposes and as a reasonable probability of making your marketing better. And now this week's episode.
Speaker 1:1:10Okay, welcome to make the logo bigger. This is our second episode from Kalydeco. This is bill rice and I got my.
Speaker 2:1:17We're all here with me so we could go on to episode two. Mike, I'm getting excited. This is a good one. This is a new trending topic that I've been kind of anxious to talk about for a long time. Lot of people look at it differently, but you know, I think there's going to be very helpful to anybody who's listening. Yeah, definitely. And we're actually going to kind of bring in, like I said, we're trying to give you a little bit of behind the scenes so we're going to talk about some of kind of, some of our own flaws and use ourselves as an example on this one. So I'm, like I said, these continue to give us feedback. These are fun or just kind of refining as we go along and, and recording conversations that Mike and I have every day and we're just kind of add in you all in.
Speaker 2:1:58So, um, so with that mic, why don't we talk about. Because today we're going to talk about why you would choose minimalism, minimalism for your web design, and we really wanted to kind of kick that off with a question of what's wrong with our website. It's kind of a, it's kind of a mess right now. That's an understatement. As anybody who works in an agency knows or even, you know, even for people that don't work at an agency, you're your own website and the things that matter to your business are often like the last thing you think about it and when it comes to being an agency, it's really the last thing you think about because all you do all day long is work on other people's websites. So what happens often in what has happened to our website, and I'll be the first to admit it, it is become a total Frankenstein. It's a disaster.
Speaker 2:2:44We're really good at our jobs, but sometimes I wonder how people hire us when they look at it and of course we're overly critical of our own stuff, but it just really needs an overhaul and a and we just never have enough time to do it, but now we're making the time to do it. And so I'm, I'm really excited about, um, you know, about comes next. I would encourage everybody listening by the way, if you'd like to see, uh, you know, the difference between the old website to what we're going to be launching hopefully in the next two to three weeks, um, to go to [inaudible] dot com and check it out. If you hear this episode, after the website redesign is done, I'm actually going to archive what the old website looked like so that you can go ahead and take a look. You know, you can take a look at what the differences between the two, um, and hopefully learn something from it.
Speaker 2:3:23That's what we're hoping to do. Totally. Totally. And so we actually kind of thought about this a little bit when we ran into a couple different designs. And we sort of started with, and one probably a little more agency typical, and then we kind of, one of our, actually our content strategist sort of kicked out the idea of a simpler, more minimal design. And um, let's, um, as we kind of transitioned into the main topic here, or you kind of give us a little bit of insight as to why we picked the minimalist design for us personally for us personally, I think, um, you know, the most important part about a minimalist design and approach for us is that we want to communicate the idea of simplicity to our clients by practicing what we preach. So often our clients want bells and whistles. They want to add all this content to the website.
Speaker 2:4:12They want everything they can, everything is possible they want on their website. And then, you know, when we argue against it, we don't always have the best example for how they should do it differently. And our website should be more than just a way for us to communicate who we are and what we do. It's really a living laboratory for us to demonstrate best practices. Um, and so that's why I think we decided to go down that direction also, to be perfectly frank, it's easier, fundamentally easier for any number of different reasons, which I know we're going to talk a little bit more about. Yeah, let's kind of jump into that. So, so why choose a minimalist design for your website? We've written about this a couple times. I think Mike's got an article, a cooking up and I've got one that I've published as well, um, but there's some real kind of simple and clear reasons to go down this particular path and some of them actually have some material benefits when we're thinking about our website is a revenue generator or lead generator.
Speaker 2:5:09Sometimes the minimalist kind of conveys a perspective that can advantage, um, those types of areas. And so we're going to kind of go down through some of those. But I think one that's kind of the most powerful, if you look at it well done, minimalist design, it often has kind of a little bit of an elite feel to it, right? I mean we didn't put as much effort into it maybe. I mean, obviously we want it to look beautiful and that that's critical, but we didn't maybe put as much effort because we didn't feel like we needed to explain ourselves or maybe you should know about our brand or maybe we have enough work that we don't have to reach out and kind of overdo the website in order to get your attention. So I think that's sort of it also, and this is one that I know is often a problem with clients, is it forces clarity when all of a sudden you take out all the room and all the space and all the copy that you could allot yourself on sort of an endless scrolling page and say, hey, we're going to make it look a little more stark.
Speaker 2:6:20Then then it forces you to be clear on the what is that one message that we want to deliver? What does that one call to action? What is that? That one idea or concept that we want to draw them in for? So it really forces that clarity. I think another thing too is just does it just drives decision making, right?
Speaker 3:6:45One hundred percent. I think the biggest, sorry I don't have a technical difficulty, which is why I dropped out, but the, you know, to your point, Bill, the clarity and decision making process before, I think a lot of people, let me back up a little bit. I think a lot of people, when they think about their website, right? Like sometimes if you are a, you know, if you're a design agency, you think of your website is like a work of art. Um, you know, if you are a, you know, a manufacturing company, you think about your website is a way to express the differentiation in your process and, and all those things are good and, and, and, you know, well considered I suppose, but really what your website is, is two things, right? It's a tool to drive growth for your business and it's a tool for your customers to like solve a problem or to find something they need or to discover something that they want.
Speaker 3:7:26Uh, and so when you talk about clarity of clarity in purpose and message, and then also drives a decision, you know, the more random paths that you create on your website, not only is it a problem for you and your marketing team to handle and sort of manage a, it's also a nightmare for your customers to find exactly what they're, what they're looking for. Don't try to anticipate every need that they have know, put them down the path that you know they need to be. What does apple always say? It's like create the product that someone knows they don't want yet. That should be the idea behind your website.
Speaker 2:7:56Yeah, totally. And in making those decisions, whether it's making those decisions for yourself as to what you're going to put on that website or what, what's going to be that core message or what that value proposition are, but also making a, enforcing the customer when they arrive at your site to make a decision. I can't tell you how many times, um, when we, we kind of overdo a website or we create too much, you know, dynamic content or too many different options, then we send the customer into just sort of a paralysis because they don't know what, what to do and they're never forced to make a decision so they just kind of infinitely consume. I think the other thing too, and this is what we've run into for sure it products and services and teams and um, and the way that you, the addressable market or the market that you're, that you're looking to kind of reach out to or target is constantly changing in a business. I mean, a good business is dynamic and moves with the market. And so making it or finding a design that is as timeless as possible is super critical. Um, and when you kind of eliminate all the distractions on your website, there are less things that can age on you, right? The color, the colors, the content, the, even though you talk about things can definitely change. I'm sure
Speaker 3:9:17the reasons why our website is a total catastrophe is because every single time when we come into a client's space, so to speak or into their team, you know, there's always a scope of work that sits there. But for us, what ends up happening, because we work with so many different businesses, startups across so many different verticals, you know, ultimately we in conversation, our clients always ask us to do something that wasn't in the scope and sometimes they actually create like a new service category for us. Um, as an example, like sales automation would be another one. It's not something that we offered on the website. And on the second that we do it, we go back to the website to create yet another services page. And then when you come to the website, you know, as a, as a potential customer, it looks like we're a jack of all trades.
Speaker 3:9:58Like we do all of these things and it just doesn't make sense to them. And then that would create that Frankenstein feel to our website. And if you went to the clinical.com right now, you would notice it, right? We just list so many different services and so many different things we do and sure we do all of those things, but, but the new redesign is really gonna be focused not on, on what we do, but on how we do it, no matter what we're, uh, what kind of service or deliverable we're applying that strategy or philosophy,
Speaker 2:10:23right? And even going to get us focused into the services and the processes that we deliver most effectively. Meaning they're the most profitable for us. And, and they produced the best result for the clients, I think is another key point. Again, going back to, to kind of forcing us and the customer to make a decision there. I mean there are a lot of things that we can do a and we would do a at different times, um, but maybe isn't the stuff that we should be doing or should be focused on. Um, talk a little bit about Mike, the managing and the maintenance of part of this. And this is obviously something that's run into us, but it definitely runs into clients as a, as an issue is just when you've got all these pieces, like what does it take to, to maintain and manage these kind of websites? Well, when you get to the point, you know, when you get to the point
Speaker 3:11:14have it, let's say most websites don't really need more than like six pages, right? And if you really think about it, so, but, but what clients and in ourselves by the way I have a tendency to do is like, well I can just keep adding pages like infinitely doesn't matter from an Seo perspective. You know, the argument is that no one comes in on the homepage. They come in on interior pages and so even if they're outside of the navigation, but then of course what happens is when you start testing and trying different things and different pieces of content, different landing pages and whatever your digital, digital marketing by its very nature is going to force you to change your website a lot. And if you don't focus on changing a small minute number of pages and you just have to start adding new page after page after page, it becomes totally unwieldy to manage, right?
Speaker 3:11:56So you change one thing in one place and then uh, and then a customer, we had this problem even on our website where we had a page up for a long time about it, very cheap web service that we're trying to offer. It did not work by the way we could, we could not deliver the quality website that wanted to at this price. And that changed, lived out there. And then we forgot about it by the way. And then all of a sudden it started to rank and we started to get all these leads that we actually couldn't service. So it can create not only business problems for you, it's just hard to maintain and sort of pay attention to all these disparate pages. And then once you do that, by the way, the tendency inside an organization is just give up. And that's, that's the worst part. And that's what we did. Right? So we just gave up on the website and just lives out there and it's terrible state, uh, and we just revert back to an original position which is like, well, referrals, get us business anyway,
Speaker 2:12:41you know, and that's, that, that's really not a good state to be in. Right. And to your point, I mean, it's a bad customer experience as well. I mean, the worst thing, you can have something on your website or a series of things on your website that you're really not paying attention to anymore. And then when customers come, uh, you kind of, you know, him haul around it or they feel like they're being bait and switched because you try to offer something different, um, that maybe you're stronger at. And so it really becomes a really bad experience. So again, I like the minimalist approach because it makes you decide what you're going to offer and you can be very specific about, uh, the experience you're delivering even on the website to that customer when they come and engage you. So let's talk about that a little bit as far as like the, the customer engagement part. So that direct response, I think another thing that minimalist design does well is it encourages and forces a direct response from the customer. So yeah, you certainly want in there, there is a educational and knowledge building sort of content on there, but everything should be and minimalist a web design makes it easy for you to kind of see this should be driving them to some sort of engagement with you directly versus just kind of hanging out on the website and consuming without really connecting with the organization.
Speaker 3:13:57Yeah. And the benefit of that of course, you know from a minimalist perspective is that it provides you also data clarity. So, so not only are you like driving your, you know, your customers to, to a very, uh, very valuable to your business and very clear if, whether they're called action or like you said, engagement of some kind. It could be a form fill, it could be email, it could be lots of things. But when you're measuring what works and what doesn't work, if you've got this giant hodgepodge of a thing, it's really hard. Even with Google analytics, even with the best data set up to really follow a customer's path. So in a minimalist approach, you're only monitoring so much. It's kind of the analogy I would use. Um, I'll use armageddon as an example, right? So in Armageddon, the president asks, uh, you know, Billy Bob Thornton's character, the director of NASA, like why they didn't see this giant asteroid coming at them and he used respond simply.
Speaker 3:14:46He's like, well, we only have enough money to, you know, to monitor about two percent of the sky and, excuse sir, but it's a big ass. Got a sort of like the point being, if you could miss something really large because you're just trying to watch too much stuff. Um, so I think the minimalist approach, not only is it good for your customer, whatever else, let's get for data clarity, right? So you can really measure what's working, you can tweak and optimize certain funnels or paths that you want your customer to go down. And then once you have it dialed in, okay, and then go create a new path and like, that's okay, but do it in a very considered a very methodical
Speaker 1:15:17and that's the power of the design because you can really, you can kind of see where you're at and you can add in an intentional way a different know pieces and paths is to it and still keep that clarity of the overall. Okay. So let's, um, so we've, we've rattled on that for, for a good little bit and there's a lot more that we could talk about there and certainly would love to hear you guys comment back on your experiences with minimalism or, or even, um, uh, things that you've tried and maybe it doesn't work for you. I mean, I've seen some that that probably didn't actually kind of pan out the way they want to, but let's, um, let's move from that and talk a little bit about biggest challenges are rabbit holes of the week and you're listening to collide. It goes make the logo bigger podcast. You can find this on the web at [inaudible] dot com. K A L C O.com. Now back to the show. Now I'll kind of lead with this one. Mike. I'm sure you guys probably, I mean you just kind of starting to learn a little bit about us, but one thing you'll find out about me is I'm, I'm a huge investment and investing nerd.
Speaker 2:16:27And so I like um, I like to play with my investments and the stock markets and since I do have a little bit of a development background and I'm in kind of like the play around even with the marketing aspects. GotTa a little website on the, on the side that I'm playing around with, um, where we can kind of help people, uh, you know, make investment decisions. So anyway, I went down this, this path last weekend where it's just kind of looking at trading apps and even for my own investments, trying to kind of get better data and make that data sort of come to me instead of always having to chase it down. Believe it or not, it's, it's Kinda hard to get information about a stocks and news and, and how those stocks are trading. And moving and then if you get into some other aspects of it, the economic indicators and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:17:18Anyway, long story short, I started playing around and looking for some different data apis and I'm always amazed by how much I'm open. I'm or data available Api that are out there. You can kind of hacked together all kinds of interesting little applications out of these apis. And so I ended up in in Trino, which is a website that literally has all kinds of marketplace data and endpoints and started to plug these in so I didn't have to go of full developer. I started plugging these into google sheets. So if you don't, if you've never played with Google spreadsheets, I mean it's literally an application development environment in itself. So. But just kind of plugging in these apis and just a little bit of code was literally sucking in a financial market data and sort of grinding those calculations against my own portfolio. So that's kind of a rabbit hole that I went into. And I think eventually we'll, we'll try to bring some of that kind of stuff to do a website or, or client maybe, who knows?
Speaker 3:18:25I would say that is quite a rabbit hole. I'm still busy trying to make sure I just contributed to my. I suppose the question everybody wants to know a bar is can you make them rich? And if so, where do they go to the. Yeah,
Speaker 2:18:37for sure. We're all trying to figure that out. So, but uh, we'll, we should have a whole, a whole episode at some point about like investing in marketing because it's interesting too. Like I said, I'm definitely an investment nerd and I watch a lot of these actually, again, I think I've said this before, but the inspiration for the podcast was a lot of the uh, investment podcasts I listened to and um, there's a lot of cool things there and how they market their services. And there's definitely a shift towards a, in the investment community, even some of the bigger funds and fund managers and hedge funds. I'm really leaning into more of the social or engagement or an influencer, sort of marketing campaigns to market these, these enormous investment funds. I mean, the guy that I listened to the most just took over as CEO of a $6,000,000,000 fund and um, and a lot of his lot of his marketing is literally his podcast and his, what he does on twitter, uh, and these kinds of things. So it's, uh, it's kind of fascinating. It's marketing in that that particular industry is changing significantly.
Speaker 3:19:46What company, what investment company is it that like changing their strategy from managing a giant portfolios to actually going after the smaller investor. I was reading about it earlier this week and I thought you might know, I can't remember who it was, but it was, it was a shift from a major, a major investment house like a wells fargo or something like that. I can't remember who it was, um, to, to stop trying to manage like, you know, your giant people's portfolio and build an automated software platform that would know, catered to like the, you know, to, to the novice, so to speak. So that they can at least get it on the marketplace. I don't
Speaker 2:20:20know that particular one, but I, there's definitely a trend in that space. Uh, well Charles Schwab is, is kind of an interesting one in that they have for a long time they've kind of tried to seemingly build up a base of people that are trying to have, kind of, not a hands off approach, but I'm so smaller investors. I think there are definitely going after that, but I think the bigger trend now that you're probably catching is a lot of these larger funds. Um, and a lot of the hedge funds in particular are strapping on these Robo advisors, is what they're called. And they're basically just kicking people into their automated algorithms to do asset allocation. Uh, and uh, and that's a really easy thing to do, uh, with an algorithm is just to say, hey, I want to, I want to have all this money put in here.
Speaker 2:21:11Um, I'm this kind of, uh, of investor as far as risk tolerance. And as a result, there's some kind of pretty proven models as to what that asset allocation should be as far as, you know, stocks versus bonds versus maybe some other investment or asset classes, and then literally balanced that out on a percentage basis or a weighted basis. Uh, and then as things, some of those assets grow and some of them decline, you just are constantly and dynamically and automatically rebalancing that portfolio to maintain that mix. Um, and so that's a really hot topic. And most of those, there's actually literally, um, services and this goes kind of to the API thing. They're literally services that these people are just strapping into their organizations as white labels, but it's all the same thing underneath. So you're kind of getting the same, same deal from, um, from different outlets. That sounds pretty awesome. So, all right, we didn't get your rabbit hole, but let's. In the interest of time, let's kick over to marketing trends. You've got any marketing trends that are kind of A.
Speaker 3:22:20Yeah, sure. I mean, I'm micro influencers are kind of a new thing. I don't know how new when you listen to this, but, but, but as of lately, the expense and cost of actual influencers, what I mean by that as influencer marketing of course, or um, you know, grabbing people with large social profiles, large followings to either to talk about tweet, make videos, whatever, talk about your product and, or service and then your coopting they're giant audience. So many small businesses or even medium sized businesses who don't have the marketing budget to jump into like the influencer space, um, you know, are now. There's companies that are aggregating what they call micro influencers. So the idea behind it is of course that, you know, a person who has got a, a reasonably interesting following or a small facebook group of like only a thousand people, you could go ahead and collect 10 to 15 of those people and then you, they equal one influences. Um, and so the new trend is to, for there's a couple of software companies and other companies out there like tap influencer companies like that that are aggregating these micro-influencers in, in every vertical possible. And then you go to them and then they give you a list of them and it's basically the exact same thing as influencer marketing.
Speaker 2:23:26Fascinating. It's kind of interesting that you mentioned that, and I'll just make this my, my trend that I just noticed and it's a little bit of a, a kind of a marketing news piece I guess. But I'm rand Fishkin. So anybody that's in the marketing space probably knows him him. Well, he's responsible for a mas. He was one of the, our, he was the founder, I think his mom actually. Uh, yeah. And created a, an seo powerhouse and then they sort of moved into software and then a few other sort of marketing platforms that are tapped onto that. So just this week, um, he made an announcement that he was leaving mas and he's actually starting a new company and I. is that the second time he stepped away, so he's, he's an, I just read his, his article or whatever. So that's kind of where I'm getting this from.
Speaker 2:24:20But he stepped away as ceo before and just kind of became, I think a member of the board. And then appointed a new CEO, so he kind of stepped out of the business and actually went from a sort of a leadership the way he describes it as more of an individual contributor focusing on some particular projects and, and software products. Um, and then they made a pivot, I'm back to Seo because they had a lot of sort of disparate inbound marketing sort of focuses, uh, and in my understanding from reading this article, um, they're kind of pivoting hard back into seo as a, as an individual, a discipline. Um, and there's some interesting reasons for that. But long story short, he still, I'm on the board still the chairman, I think of that, but he's literally stepping out of the company for all intensive purposes and starting this new venture that the whole reason I kind of bring it into this conversation is the venture looks like it is somewhat leaning into what you're talking about with influencers. So he's fascinated by the concept of, of getting these influencers and leveraging them for, for your marketing needs. So, um, so that'll be an interesting one to watch. He's always been, I'm obviously a little bit of a, a leading influence, but this is different,
Speaker 3:25:39but yes, but yes, the leading influence, anybody wants to learn anything about Seo by the way. I highly recommend going and going to Moz and then get on the whiteboard Friday videos, the nordics. No one explains it or breaks down the principles and search engine marketing better than better than Rand Fishkin. But yeah, it's definitely,
Speaker 2:25:57I'd love to have him on this podcast at some point, but it's always amazing. The kind of the mad scientist are always a little bit unique in their own right. So, um, okay. So marketing trends, a top recommendations. You got any recommendations for us this week?
Speaker 3:26:16I got a good one for everybody by the way. And you know, some people were only going to listen to me or that might be surprised because, you know, we were on a digital agency, but take facebook off your phone. Uh, I did it recently and I have to engage facebook all the time, both for friends and family reasons, for work reasons or whatever else. And so like I can't escape facebook if I want it to, so I'll even reserve my opinions on the platform itself, given the, the Russian Bot scandal and all other kind of stuff and I have issues with the way they aggregate and disseminate data for a marketing perspective. But, but bottom line is there's nothing more distracting than your telephone and facebook is just pinging you all day long with like the stupidest updates possible, you know, your sister's kids or whatever else. And we all love all that stuff. So if you want to stay focused, like I like to stay focused. One of the very simple things that I've been able to, to cut out of my life is the constant alert from facebook and it just did so by taking it off my phone, it was ad I would never go back.
Speaker 2:27:13Nice. Actually, I've got an upcoming episode. We kind of got a little bit of a, a talk that I want to do about facebook because they're making some changes and whatnot. So we'll save that for them. But my recommendation this week is actually, um, it's been around for a while. Obviously, and I've been in and out of it, but it's kind of come to a point where I think it's got a strong position and that's medium.com and the reason for that recommendation is for those of us who write or who provide consultation and advice of any sort on a regular basis, there are so many little tiny tidbits that can be so valuable to our customers that we just don't get out into the public domain as often and as easily as we should. And in medium in particular, you know, we're press is kind of where, uh, not necessarily where I started, but there were a few blogging platforms before there, but that's, that's a big piece of kind of easy publication, but it's even become so complex in there that, um, that often it creates friction.
Speaker 2:28:15And medium is just a really enjoyable user friendly writing environment. It has a lot of clarity. It has its own sort of minimalist a setup and you can just pop in there and write and hit the publish button. And as I've kind of been toying with it, and I'm always in this mode of, of tinkering and experimenting with it, um, it doesn't because it has a built in audience. They're there, comes in their a one, people are going to see it without you doing a lot of work or even having to figure out how to do audience generation, but it also doesn't have necessarily the constraints or the preferential treatment that Google is controlling. And so you can go in there probably one of my most popular articles recently. Um, what's a list of five books that I was reading and all I did literally will say, Hey, these are the five books that I'm reading.
Speaker 2:29:09And I listed them. And probably the total article was less than 250 words, which if you were to publish that on a website or wordpress, um, you would never see the light of day. Um, and so, so even these quick little things. And then some of them are, you know, thousand plus. So the rhyme or reason doesn't seem to be about the quantitative aspects of the content. But literally whatever the community is feeling like is important to them and so there's now a creates a lot of volatility into what articles get you attention and what don't. Um, but as far as like ease and frequency of just kicking it out there and getting a lot of people to pay attention to you, it seems to be just super valuable, easy way to do that. So
Speaker 3:30:01I totally agree. I've resisted the medium like wave, I guess I'll call it for a long time. The culture of medium is still something that I don't necessarily like. I don't want to say I don't enjoy it, but there's a, there's a lot of focus on like productivity hacks and all that kind of stuff, which I, which bill br is probably much more of an advocate of than I am. I'm the articles that tell you there's some secret sauce to do something or I think are full of nonsense because there's no such thing as a magic wand, you know, as much as I'd love to be a wizard, it just doesn't, doesn't exist. So because a lot of that kind of stuff on medium. But what I see your point, Dr, what I do really, really love about it is the, you know, the writing experience and the built in audiences is absolutely correct. If you want someone to read what you write and get some feedback as to the egg, either quality of your writing or I don't want to say the quality of your ideas, but maybe the timeliness of your ideas or the value of your ideas. There's no better platform than medium because I wrote an article not too long ago that's a 16 and reasons to stop writing and start publishing and medium was exactly the, the inspiration for that, which is just a just to do something as opposed to keep continuing.
Speaker 2:31:10Totally. Yeah. That's been fun for sure. And we all need to do more content creation. It just helps everything that we do and just to think through things, I think there's a ton of value to whether whatever you're comfortable format is, whether it's writing or video or audio like this. I'm just doing these things to think through and make what you're delivering on a daily basis better is, is awesome. So with that, we'll wrap up this episode too. Again, we're building this thing as we were flying it, so we'd love to get all your feedback and comments. Um, again, just a reminder, I'm bill rice, got my carol here we are the owners and leaders of Kaleida Co, which is a marketing agency and so we'd love for you to visit us over at [inaudible] dot com and certainly leave us all the comments and feedback here and we'll see you next Wednesday. We do this once a week, but we'll see you next Wednesday on episode three piece. It sounds good to me.